A Married Mormon Couple Comes Out Of The Closet

 

On paper, Kerry and Steve Spencer were the perfect Mormon married couple. They got hitched in their early 20s — and that meant being together forever. 

They had a couple of kids. Then, after more than a decade together, they both came out of the closet.

In this unconventional love story, hear about their new and complicated relationship to each other, to God, and to religion. Hosted by Lee Hale. From KUER and PRX.

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Show Notes:

  • Hear Lee’s recent KUER interview with Kerry Spencer on a growing queer community at Brigham Young University and within Mormonism.

  • Kerry has a lot to say on Twitter, follow her @swilua.

Transcript:

Kerry Spencer We were married in the Oakland temple in California.

Lee Hale Can you tell me about that day?

Kerry Spencer My bridesmaids coincidentally were wearing rainbow outfits. Which was not on purpose because we were way not self-aware enough for that at that point in our lives. 

- - -

Lee Hale From KUER and PRX, this is Preach. I'm Lee Hale. And that was Kerry Spencer talking about getting married almost two decades ago. And she married this guy. 

Steve Spencer I'm Steve Spencer. I was raised Mormon. Now I believe in God but not religion.

Lee Hale Faith is messy for Kerry and Steve. Which makes them perfect guests for Preach. This is a show all about the messiness of faith. I talk to believers of all religions. Anyone willing to wrestle with life's biggest questions. 

I'm a Mormon, so trust me when I tell you that on paper, Kerry and Steve were the perfect Mormon couple. Steve was at the University of Utah, the big state school in Salt Lake City. Kerry went to Brigham Young University, the Mormon college. Later she worked there as a professor. 

They were both raised in strict religious families. They married young. Had a couple of kids. But here's the thing. 

They are not straight. 

Kerry is queer and Steve is gay. 

But when they first met they didn't realize that. Not about each other and not even about themselves. 

What they did know was that they were both finalists to become Rhodes scholars. The two very nervous, kind of nerdy college students met on the day of their scholarship interviews.

Steve Spencer I was early for my appointment. I'm always early. So that was very in character for me.

Kerry Spencer He's never early. (shush) That was the last time in his life he was ever early to anything. (laughs)

Steve Spencer Then she came out of her interview and I was waiting.

Kerry Spencer And these interviews were intense. They had this panel of people and they were trying to make you anxious and trying to trip you up with their questions and it was a long interview. So when I came out of my interview I was anxious and completely keyed up and I needed to talk to somebody and he was there. So I just --

Steve Spencer Very curious about what faced me, right?

Kerry Spencer He was because he was about to go in in about 30 more minutes and so I was like ' Hi I'm Kerry. Let me tell you about my interview. And let me tell you about my major. And let me tell you about my relationship with my mother. And I just started talking and going on and on and on and on and that's how we met 

Lee Hale What did you see in Steve that made you feel like you could just unload? 

Kerry Spencer I felt like I knew him from the very beginning and I felt comfortable with him in a way that I hadn't felt comfortable with other men before. And so it was easy to talk to him.

Steve Spencer Also I was insanely curious and needed something to keep my mind off of my own impending interview which was absolutely nerve racking.

Lee Hale Steve was a captive audience for Kerry. And I mean that literally. After their interviews, the scholarship applicants were all stuck together in the same waiting room for hours while the winners were decided. Kerry made a joke about feeling like Schrodinger's Cat to break the tension. You know, that famous hypothetical experiment about the fate of a cat placed inside a box. Well, the only person who laughed was Steve.

Kerry Spencer And they announced who the winners were and I had won and Steve hadn't. And so they made everybody who hadn't won leave the room right then. And so I didn't think I'd ever see him again.

Steve Spencer But I tracked her down and BYU email system and sent her an email saying 'How did it go? Let's have lunch to discuss the scholarship'.

Lee Hale When did that friendship turn into something more romantic or something that felt like a date?

Steve Spencer It was nine months meets a marriage. Our first meeting after that Schrodinger's Cat day was our first date.

Kerry Spencer And nine months for Mormons really isn't whirlwind.That's actually pretty normal.

Lee Hale Right. When Mormons talk about marriage to another Mormon, it's talked about as eternal marriage. That's the phrase the Mormons use. This is going to last for eternity. This is your partner for ever, ever, ever. And that's why the marriage is called a sealing and not a marriage. And you two were sealed, right? In the temple?

Kerry Spencer We went through the temple and you kneel at the altar and they have mirrors on either side and makes this sort of eternal image of the two of you. And you're sealed together for time and for all eternity.

Lee Hale Right, you can see the reflection of each other forever (yes) with these mirrors facing each other and so you're meant to really reflect on what you just did, right? (yes) Like you're meant to like really soak it in. Like you have just committed to each other forever. Did you feel peace about that? The fact that it was with each other?

Kerry Spencer I did.

Steve Spencer Afterwards. I was really nervous leading up to it.

Kerry Spencer You were nervous before. You were about to run away.

Steve Spencer Well.

Lee Hale Is that true?

Steve Spencer Yeah, that's true.

Kerry Spencer There was one moment right before we went into the sealing where ...

Steve Spencer This is my moment you weren't even there.

Kerry Spencer OK, go ahead.

Steve Spencer (laughs) So, Kerry was getting ready in the bride's room because they have a room for brides not for grooms. For grooms you have a chair in the hallway. And so she was getting ready and I was waiting. And she was getting ready and I was waiting. And she was still getting ready and I was still waiting.

And I sat, I don't think it was too, too long, but I sat there in the hallway thinking to myself 'they've left me alone. I don't have my parents with me or her parents with me or anybody at all. And if I just left I could just leave'.

I don't think because I was self-aware enough to know that I was a gay man marrying someone who wasn't a man. But because the whole idea of locking myself into a relationship for eternity with anyone was very very scary.

Kerry Spencer It's a lot.

Lee Hale It's a lot.

Steve Spencer No offense.

Kerry Spencer I mean you're 21 years old. Like, eternity?

Steve Spencer Yeah I was 24, I should have known better.

Kerry Spencer You were 24. I was 21. It was a big concept.

Lee Hale Right.

Steve Spencer After that, to your point, we were very calm. Enjoying the day. Filling our roles perfectly, I thought. Everyone was congratulating us. It was what we were supposed to do. So it felt very good. 

Lee Hale Families were overjoyed too, right? This is a happy thing. This is like the happy thing that happens in Mormonism. You have found your partner and you are beginning your life for eternity together. Right?

Kerry Spencer Right.

Steve Spencer Definitely. Yeah. We're both the oldest. It was their first child to get married.

Lee Hale At the time of your wedding, at the time your sealing, I'm curious about how open you were not to each other but to yourselves. Kerry, let's start with you. How open were you to yourself with your sexuality?

Kerry Spencer The party line in Mormonism was that being gay was a choice. That you would have temptations and that you just would make a better choice. So did I know that I had fallen in love with women before? Yes.

Lee Hale How did you know?

Kerry Spencer Because I had.

Steve Spencer Wow. I didn't know that.

Kerry Spencer Well, I would always explain it away. I was attracted enough to men to be like 'well, I just make a better choice.' I don't know that I conceived of myself as queer in any way. I certainly didn't think that I was gay. I was positive that I was heterosexual with occasional temptations.

Lee Hale Steve, how about you for that. When you got married, 24, how out to yourself were you?

Steve Spencer Yeah, no I was definitely not aware. The amount of sheltered upbringing in the Mormon Church is extreme. I remember thinking when I was twelve and I found boys very attractive and handsome that everyone did. All the other boys did too. And when I realized, thankfully very gradually without any bullying or being beaten up, that that was not true it became something shameful and something that I just didn't think about. I didn't even use the terms in my head 'straight' or 'gay'.

Kerry Spencer No. Well, those weren't things then.

Steve Spencer No that was just like ...

Kerry Spencer You had occasional temptations.

Steve Spencer Right. I was the way I was supposed to be with occasional temptations and I was nervous about 'Had I chosen the right woman?' Because that's what everyone seems to be nervous about sometimes. It's a big decision. It didn't even enter my mind that I hadn't chosen perhaps the right gender 

Lee Hale And did either you suspect anything about the other? 

Kerry Spencer Nothing.

Steve Spencer I remember you saying ...

Kerry Spencer I was like every man I've ever liked has always been gay and you're the very first person who's straight and I'm just so happy about it.

Steve Spencer And I just nodded. 

Kerry Spencer I'm just so relieved.

Lee Hale Coming up, the coming out stories.

[BREAK]

Lee Hale So, Steve and Kerry played their parts as a typical married Mormon couple more than 15 years before they came out to each other. And if you're thinking, how is that possible? Well, they were busy. They had their careers and they were raising two young kids.

Steve Spencer We were enabled in our denial by just being so busy.

Kerry Spencer By life. By being so overwhelmed by life. Yeah that's true.

Lee Hale Yeah.

Kerry Spencer So I found out accidentally that Steve wasn't straight. And I was surprised.

Lee Hale What do you mean accidentally?

Kerry Spencer (laughs) We, just, it was, it came up when we were talking once and yeah it ...

 Steve Spencer She's kind of sparing my reputation a little bit. So what really happened was something that happens to many men, straight or gay, which is that their browser history becomes seen by someone.

Lee Hale Right.

Steve Spencer So...

Kerry Spencer So I said, 'hey, what's this?' And he said, 'Oh yeah, I'm not straight'. 

Steve Spencer I didn't say it wasn't straight. I said I'm probably bi.

Kerry Spencer But things were really complicated then because I had been very ill at the time. I was undergoing a number of cancer surgeries. And I had had some that were going very badly. I don't remember exactly where it was but at some point I lost about a quarter of my skin and was quite sick.

And so that was something that I found out that was quite surprising and I didn't know what to do with. But I just sort of pretended like it didn't happen and didn't think about it for a long time. 

Steve Spencer Was that the first time you'd ever noticed anything?

Kerry Spencer About you?

Steve Spencer Had I covered my tracks that well?

Kerry Spencer Yes.

Steve Spencer Wow.

Kerry Spencer  I didn't suspect even once. It wasn't something that I had ever ...

Steve Spencer But then once you did have this inkling 'wow he's looking at these pictures of men that are not wearing shirts' and you know, (laughs) other very tame stuff like that. Then you were like immediately ready to talk to me about it?

Kerry Spencer Well at first it didn't occur to me that it was you. And I was like maybe one of the kids is doing strange things online at this point. (laughs) They were like ten years old.

Steve Spencer Ten, 12, younger maybe.

Kerry Spencer It was such a foreign concept to me. So I brought it up. I was like 'Hey ... what's up?' (laughs)

Lee Hale So can we backtrack a little bit because I don't think I quite heard about the moment that Kerry, when you came out to Steve.

Kerry Spencer When we moved to Maryland, I was a lot healthier than I had been for years I didn't have to have quite as many surgeries as I used to have. And things were quiet and happy and in that quietness I started to have crush after crash after crush on woman after woman after woman. And it got exhausting. And I was like 'oh my gosh, this is exhausting'.

And before, I would explain these crushes away. I'd be like, well, I'm married now so I don't have crushes on men anymore. And that's because I'm married. And really if I have a crush on a woman it's just because I want to be friends. But after a while, I was like this is ridiculous.

Lee Hale Like, crushes on people you're working with?

Kerry Spencer Everybody, all, so many. Like ...

Steve Spencer People at church, I think?

Kerry Spencer  At church, at work, at random places, like on television. It didn't matter. It got overwhelming. I was like 'this is ridiculous now and I need to do something'. So I started researching because I'm a professor and I read a lot. And the more that I researched the more I was like, Steve might think that he's bi, but he's not bi. It just seems very clear just based on the research that I read.

And so I went and talked to Steve and I was like 'so I'm not straight. And I think you're gay. And there it is. And (Oh) he said 'Oh, OK'. (laughs)

Steve Spencer And I had never even said in my head the words 'I am gay'. Like I had known gay people in high school and college and working. I never identified as one of them. I always thought of them as different people than me because I was straight Mormon guy, I guess, if I had been forced to say what I was. 

Kerry Spencer Straight guy, with occasional temptations. 

Steve Spencer Right, with occasional temptations. So that was quite difficult. It took me probably 2 1/2 hours to finally get those words out that I was gay. But then it was a relief (It was) A little bit, to both of us. 

Kerry Spencer And then we decided what we're gonna do about it.

Steve Spencer And we had already kind of been inching away from the Mormon Church for reasons related to our sexuality. But also, you know, we were worried about inherent misogyny in Mormonism and how it affected our daughter. And whether the leadership of the Mormon Church was listening to the members. Those are some of our issues. So this issue of our sexuality took all the attention and became the forefront of our relationship with the church. And it became incompatible with staying in the church. That was one of the steps we decided we had to take.

Kerry Spencer It was a difficult position to be in because when you're Mormon you have your eternal marriage that's never ever supposed to end. And you enter into that marriage when you're very young with very little experience. And so I had never kissed a woman. Or I had never been on a date with a woman. And Steve had never dated men. And we had to make this massive decision about our marriage without any experience at all.

I knew maybe one gay woman and I reached out to her and I said 'what I do?' And she introduced me to some other people and we got introduced at the Affirmation Mixed-Orientation Marriage Support Group. And we talked through what our options were, what we were going to do about our marriage. What we were going to ...

Steve Spencer Tell the kids. That was a huge consideration.

Kerry Spencer Yeah. That was a huge consideration. Right.

Lee Hale Was there a part of you that thought maybe it's not worth it? Maybe we just need to keep this quiet because it's going to be so disruptive?

Steve Spencer So the timing of things is not completely under your own control, right? I had a minor car accident with her daughter. And when I called Kerry to tell her about it and to tell her that we were OK, I said, without really thinking, 'I didn't mean to do it, don't worry'. And what did you think when you heard that?

Kerry Spencer I mean suicidality is a big problem for queer Mormons. And there was something when he spoke to me that was so haunted.

Lee Hale That thing that Steve said just after the car accident? That he didn't mean to cause the crash? That was meant as reassurance. But it really scared them both. It was a clear sign that living in the closet had become too painful. Too psychologically damaging.

Kerry Spencer And that was the critical point where we decided we have to do something we can't ...

Steve Spencer And it mattered that our daughter was in the car. It mattered because it's one thing for us to harm ourselves by being in denial but it's another thing to potentially harm the children by not being true to ourselves.

Lee Hale Did that surprise you when you said it yourself? Because I mean ...

Steve Spencer Yes I did. When I said that I wasn't thinking. Because as I talked about before, I have been very careful to assiduously hide even from myself my true nature as a gay man. And part of that was hiding any reason for anger or crankiness or all the other things that were quite acute by this time. I think because of the drama of the accident, and the drama of our discussion, and just in general how much tension had been building up in our marriage, and our cognitive dissonance in general, that it was not really about what are the half measures we're gonna do in our mixed orientation marriage.

Kerry Spencer What radical change are we going to make.

Steve Spencer What radical change are we gonna make. Because letting this tension go feels really good. It feels right.

Lee Hale Yeah. And it sounds like it felt like a matter of life and death. 

Kerry Spencer It did feel like a matter of life and death. Yes.

Steve Spencer I think we've both grown as people because of coming out and unfortunately our compatibility with the Mormon Church as it is now is at zero for both of us.

Lee Hale The Spencer family had been going to church less and less around the time Kerry and Steve came out to each other. But stepping away from the church was more complicated for Kerry than simply not showing up on Sunday. Kerry had what Mormons refer to as a calling: responsibility at church. Other people depended on her. But as part of her coming out, she decided to tell her bishop she want to be released from her calling. In Mormon congregations, the bishop is like the head pastor. They're not paid. And they volunteer their time. But their role is very revered and respected.

Kerry Spencer It was a stressful conversation. I didn't want to tell him that I wasn't straight because that's still something that my culture has made sort of unspeakable. It's not something you talk about. But I also knew that I couldn't keep going to church because it was damaging at that point.

Lee Hale Damaging in what way?

Kerry Spencer In every way. The faith itself starts to be the thing that hurts you. I tried to explain that to the bishop. I said we've done the right thing our whole lives. And the choices that we made, those right things, those are the things that hurt us. Keeping the commandments hurt us. And he didn't understand. He didn't understand. He said 'How could keeping the commandments hurt you?' And I didn't know how to explain it to him either. And ...

Steve Spencer This was several months after we'd come out to each other. I had moved out of our bedroom by then but still during that interview we held hands and ...

Kerry Spencer Steve was there.

Steve Spencer We're family members for each other at least if not a romantic couple. 

Kerry Spencer It was my interview with the bishop, but in true Mormon fashion, he wanted my husband to be present. Since my husband was the head of the family or something. I don't know. Yeah. 

Steve Spencer Our eyes are rolling. But that was a rough day. That was a rough conversation.

Kerry Spencer It was a rough conversation, yeah.

Lee Hale Did you feel like God was letting you down? Were you praying? Were you seeking? Could you rely on God? Was that a part of this?

Kerry Spencer It felt like when I was choosing to leave the church that I would be leaving God behind. That I was done with God. That God was incompatible with my life. That God didn't want somebody like me. And that I was just going to walk away.

But the thing that was surprising to me was that as I left, God didn't go away. God got bigger. And more beautiful. And changed. And God became something so much more profound than the small God that I had been raised with. This God that cared so much whether I was straight or whether I was gay. This God that wanted me to do these certain things on this list. That's a very small God. And the God that I was now feeling was so much bigger.

Lee Hale Did you ever have a moment where God wasn't real to you?

Kerry Spencer I have moments where I'm not sure what God is.

Steve Spencer All of those moments.

Kerry Spencer All of those moments (laughs) Steve is very much like, done. There's no God. I'm out.

Steve Spencer No, no I think there is a God.

Lee Hale Were you reaching out to God in those trying times for you Steve? I know we talked about the coming out. But I'm sure you had a lot of conversations with yourself about your identity and this (yes) struggle. And so were you involving God in those conversations?

Steve Spencer I had not involved God in my struggle with my sexuality for a long time. When I first was dealing with impure thoughts and temptations to break the law of chastity and have sex before marriage or do other impure things I did not categorize that as a sexuality thing. And I did ask God for help.

But as nothing changed, I adapted and stopped asking God for help and simply compartmentalized it into its own box and lied to myself about its existence. And that of course created a lot of tension inside me. But I was able to continually just push it down, push it down, push it down until finally it was leaking out a little bit.

And what was leaking out was if this is part of me, and I hate it so much that I won't even acknowledge it, then I must hate myself and maybe there is less reason for myself to exist.

Since stopping going to church I expected to really miss the church. And I missed the people. But I think I had already disassociated my relationship with the spiritual plane and with God from this religion or maybe other religions. And so it became very esoteric and very theoretical and unknowable. The idea of a God. And certainly not knowable to the degree of having commandments, or cursing people or interfering with our lives.

So I guess I've become a deist as opposed to a theist. But, I mean, I think that God, or whatever God is, has created is a miracle and I believe that there is the miracle of love and of life. But I don't believe that paying 10 percent is a miracle. Or wearing a certain kind of clothing is a miracle. Or that any of these other things are anything more than useful tools for some people to connect with the higher power. But not for me.

Lee Hale When you decide to get a divorce, what was that like as a family? What was it like telling the kids what's happening?

Kerry Spencer Biggest thing we tried to do with the children is keep everything as stable as possible and keep as little fear out of it as possible. So when Steve and I separated he didn't move out. He went into a little apartment we had in the basement. So he moved into the basement and we we told the kids, he'll be moving into the basement.

Steve Spencer The lower level. (laughs)

Kerry Spencer Yes. He's going to be downstairs. Mom's going to be upstairs. You're welcome in all the places. 

Lee Hale It does sound like a sitcom. (laughs) It would make a good sitcom. So once my son was talking to me he said 'My friend said that his parents are getting divorced and he was really sad about it and I didn't understand because it's fine. Everything is fine. Divorce is fine.' At the time I burst into tears because he had no idea how careful and hard we'd planned to try to make it as non traumatic as possible for him and when he said that I knew we'd succeeded.

Lee Hale Are you still down in the basement Steve?

Kerry Spencer He is, yes.

Steve Spencer I'm in the lower level, yes.

Kerry Spencer He's in the lower level.

Lee Hale Lower level. Sorry. (laughs) I gotta call it by its appropriate name.

Kerry Spencer All of us in our big Prancer family.

Steve Spencer Kerry's partner has moved in.

Lee Hale Kerry you've been seeing, is it Heather? Is that her name?

Kerry Spencer Heather, yes.

Lee Hale And you've recently become engaged. Congratulations.

So, Steve I'm just curious. I know that you had this really powerful experience coming out to each other. And there was a trust and friendship and love. But I mean, I feel like I’d still be a little jealous. I don't know. I feel like I would have a hard time watching, you know, my partner (move on), even if there wasn't that same sexual intimacy or attraction. Was it hard for you or was that natural for you to watch and give her the kind of a blessing of, like, 'I support you in your new life'.

Steve Spencer I think I was so grateful for this new life, that any sacrifices that were entailed, including sharing the house with her partner and having her partner be there with her were worth it.

I did not experience too much jealousy. But I did experience a ton of envy. Because I was single and she had a partner. And it made me incredibly lonely and sad. And when the idea was broached of having her partner move in, I thought well, we're already living separately. I think the kids will like her OK. She doesn't seem to be against me, which was an important thing. If you'd had a partner who thought I was not good, and awful, then I would object to them being around more.

Kerry Spencer And that would be a deal breaker for me. Because you're my children's father. We have to all get along.

Steve Spencer Right.

Kerry Spencer Yeah. 

Lee Hale Has it been harder for you, you think just to transition to that dating life? I mean, I think it's difficult for a lot of people after years and years of marriage to put yourself back out there. Like, it's not an easy thing.

Steve Spencer There have been so many things new things to experience as part of coming out that I have mostly just sort of tried to roll with the punches. And there were times when I felt really lonely. And times that I wanted to have a partner. But there are also times when I thought I wasn't ready for another relationship. And I hadn't ever been a single gay man. So I was still trying to understand that too.

Kerry Spencer I mean it's tricky to merge parenting too. We moved to a more formal sort of like custody type thing where you're responsible with kids some days. And I'm responsible for the kids some days. And that was dating, part of that too, just to make sure everybody knew when they can date and how they could date. You have to be open about having kids when you're dating.

Lee Hale Yep, and also it's like 'hey also I live in the basement...'

Kerry Spencer Also my ex-husband lives in the basement. Hope that's okay. (laughs)

Steve Spencer That's why it's complicated is an option, right?

Kerry Spencer How do men generally react when you say 'Oh yeah. My ex-wife lives upstairs with her partner’. (laughs) What do they say?

Steve Spencer Well, I don't usually tell them in the lower level for the first time. And usually ...

Kerry Spencer Modern Family, yay!

Steve Spencer Yay! I haven't had many people object to that though.

Kerry Spencer No.

Steve Spencer Most people just sort of shrug their shoulders and say 'Well everybody's got some weird stuff going on. So, what are you gonna do?'

Lee Hale When you look back at the decision to marry each other, is there a feeling of regret?

Kerry Spencer No.

Steve Spencer I feel like I came out at age 40, right? And that's well into life, right? Some might say even late in life. But those people are not my friends. And the idea of being in my 20s and being true to my sexuality fills me with wistfulness, maybe, if not regret.

Kerry Spencer But also the world that we were in it was just not possible. We were never going to have a 20s.

Steve Spencer Well, it was possible for other people in our same situation to just not for us.

Kerry Spencer It wasn't, yeah. It didn't seem possible.

Steve Spencer And nothing against Kerry, but I feel like if it had just been she and I and there weren't kids in the equation then that wistfulness or regret might have been a little more acute. But we have these kids and that assuages a lot of the potential regret.

Kerry Spencer And I feel like we both did the best we could in the world that we lived in and in the place that we were from and our very very Mormon life that we had. I don't know that I would have been able to come out.

A lot of queer women that are in mixed orientation marriages never come out. They stay married and they keep it to themselves.

And I was married to Steve which meant that I could come out and I am very grateful for that. I don't feel like I could have the life that I have right now. And I have a beautiful life now. And that is largely possible because I married him when I was 21.

Steve Spencer And didn't know any better.

Kerry Spencer And didn't know any better. It's true. But it's not something I regret. I feel like we made the best possible choices that we could have and we came out of it the best that we could have.

Steve Spencer Yeah, no regrets.

Lee Hale Thanks for listening to Preach. And thanks to Kerry and Steve for being so open with their story. 

Kerry has lots to say on Twitter Her handle is @swilua. It's S-W-I-L-U-A. She's hilarious. 

This show is a production of KUER and PRX. If you'd like be pen pals with me, sign up for our newsletter at preachpod.org. We're also on social media at preachpod. All the platforms. 

This show is produced by me Lee Hale and Tim Slover. 

Tricia Bobeda is our editor.
This episode was mixed by Ania Grzesik. 

Our digital producer is Chelsea Naughton. 

And our executive producer is Joel Meyer. 

And if you're enjoying the show it really helps us out if you leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps other people find the show so be like sidniwals who said: 'Thank you for putting this podcast out there. I'm in a similar place with the LDS church as you. It's tough. But it gives me peace to learn more about other people's truth. Keep preaching.' 

Thanks for that and thanks for the stars and the support and all the kind words.

- - -

Lee Hale You're very public online about your lives, that you ...

Steve Spencer I know, right? (laughs)

Lee Hale Right.

Steve Spencer I keep telling her, Twitter and texting are not the same thing, Kerry. (laughs) Let's just point that out. 

Editor's Note: Steve Spencer worked at KUER and our neighboring public television station KUED in the early 2000s. His time as an employee predates our production team.

 
 
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